Game Design! ? (◄ █ ►)

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Re: Game Design! ? (◄ █ ►)

Post by Duper » 05 Jun 2015, 20:06

At 100+ ping, p2p would become unplayable competitively, whereas client/server could potentially be competitive at 150, possibly even 200. (But nobody wants 200.)
hehe.. we used to manage pings 150-225 all the time back on dial up. You just have to lead your shots. 300 was unmanagable then.
Today's kids are soo spoiled. ;D We used to DREAM of sub-100 pings. That's why we would have lans. These days, you still have to connect to an outside server and then back if you want to "LAN" with current games. Local networking has been done away with.
In some cases, you can set up a private local server, but it's a lot more difficult than it used to be. AND it can mess up your stats if that's something you care about.
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Re: Game Design! ? (◄ █ ►)

Post by Sylvester_Ink » 06 Jun 2015, 08:35

Lag only matters if there is enough of it to have a noticeable detrimental effect on gameplay. With a small enough difference, players adapt to it without thinking, just as you do in Retro using a p2p connection. (Which, no matter how good your connection is, will still have a lot more latency than an ideal situation, like a LAN.)

But there's still a point where the lag offsets the gamestate by such a small amount that stuff like collisions are unaffected. (The position of the ship and the projectile in relation to their bounding boxes will still register as a hit even if they're off slightly due to lag, for example.)

When it gets large enough that it does matter (which admittedly doesn't take a lot in a fast-paced game), the player can adjust for it by leading shots, adjusting dodges, etc. But this isn't fun to play, and with stuff like dodging, results in sloppy play.

I'm not saying that anti-lag methods eliminate this. I'm saying that it hides the issue in such a way that the game can be played normally despite the lag.

Now sticking a server in there doesn't mean it's going to reduce the amount of latency between two players. What it does is give each player a "closer" connection, as they connect to the server itself and the server is in charge of the game simulation.

There's a reason why dedicated server multiplayer tends to dominate for fast-paced competitive games, even 1v1. You see it used to good effect from TF2 (apparently that's competitive nowadays), to Quake, to Warsow and Reflex.

But moving on from all that, I'm curious, will DU be providing an option for p2p multiplayer for 1v1 classic games? (Obviously it wouldn't work out for more than 1v1, so I'm wondering if that's an option.)

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Re: Game Design! ? (◄ █ ►)

Post by 1DVD4D2UDK » 06 Jun 2015, 17:44

Sylvester_Ink wrote:But moving on from all that, I'm curious, will DU be providing an option for p2p multiplayer for 1v1 classic games? (Obviously it wouldn't work out for more than 1v1, so I'm wondering if that's an option.)
I'm pretty sure it'll be one of the gametypes to play in, with a larger
list for spectating - but how spectators would affect lag is unknown,
since your not really in the game.

And if UE3/UDK's netcode has been updated from earlier versions,
then I guess we'll just have to see what the testing results are! :D
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Re: Game Design! ? (◄ █ ►)

Post by Sylvester_Ink » 06 Jun 2015, 20:21

1DVD4D2UDK wrote:I'm pretty sure it'll be one of the gametypes to play in, with a larger
list for spectating - but how spectators would affect lag is unknown,
since your not really in the game.
I'm pretty certain that if you want all the best benefits of p2p multiplayer, a spectator mode that doesn't have any impact on it would not be feasible. The best solution I can come up with off the top of my head is each player sends a duplicate set of packets to a spectator server. It would double the bandwidth for each player, but other than that it shouldn't have a huge impact.
However, I wonder if anyone would even bother to use it. We already know that there are always players that will cheat like crazy if they can, so competitive players will gravitate towards the non-p2p method, just to avoid potential cheaters. The small group of players that actually care about the benefits of p2p will be the only ones using it, and they'll probably be the ones putting up with the hackers most.
The more I look at it, the less likely I find DU going that route, in spite of requests.
As for SolC, it looks like they're already using UE netcode, which is client/server based. Whether they bother changing it or implementing their own remains to be seen.

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Re: Game Design! ? (◄ █ ►)

Post by 1DVD4D2UDK » 07 Jun 2015, 03:11

Sylvester_Ink wrote:As for SolC, it looks like they're already using UE netcode, which is client/server based. Whether they bother changing it or implementing their own remains to be seen.
Of course, a 1v1 server may be done on a volunteer basis using a team mode -
done among friends it could work, but most new players checking an unfamiliar
server list wouldn't know except by server name or login game type options. ☺
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Re: Game Design! ? (◄ █ ►)

Post by LotharBot » 07 Jun 2015, 05:00

Sylvester_Ink wrote:Lag only matters if there is enough of it to have a noticeable detrimental effect on gameplay. With a small enough difference, players adapt to it without thinking
if players are having to adapt to it, it matters for gameplay. They may not be noticing the detrimental effect, but that doesn't mean it's not there, that just means they don't understand it well enough to articulate it.
the player can adjust for it by leading shots, adjusting dodges, etc. But this isn't fun to play
I would argue leading shots is more fun than adjusting dodges, by a landslide. "Anti-lag methods" that keep the game server-based don't make the game "played normally", they still require the player to make adjustments -- and usually the wrong ones (dodging instead of aiming).
There's a reason why dedicated server multiplayer tends to dominate for fast-paced competitive games
the majority of "fast-paced competitive games" are twitch-based with instant turning and instant weapons, and therefore you want aiming to match the server even if dodging doesn't. Descent is a different type of game, and should keep the focus on dodging rather than aiming. p2p keeps the focus on dodging. C/S with "anti-lag measures" doesn't give you as pure of a dodging experience.

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Re: Game Design! ? (◄ █ ►)

Post by LotharBot » 07 Jun 2015, 05:05

Sylvester_Ink wrote:competitive players will gravitate towards the non-p2p method, just to avoid potential cheaters
... or, competitive players will keep the connection method that gives them the best gameplay, and gravitate towards organizations that help weed out cheaters. There's a long history in the competitive Descent world with our ladders and clans acting as substantial protection against cheaters. And we all dumped Rebirth's C/S code as soon as p2p was reimplemented.

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Re: Game Design! ? (◄ █ ►)

Post by 1DVD4D2UDK » 07 Jun 2015, 20:24

LotharBot wrote:And we all dumped Rebirth's C/S code as soon as p2p was reimplemented.
Aren't there still some servers running the old version without P2P?
To keep Rebirth as a viable alternative? For whatever reason that
might crop up that someone would opt for rebirth over dxl? :D
To keep as many versions of Descent clones available to play.
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Re: Game Design! ? (◄ █ ►)

Post by Duper » 10 Jun 2015, 06:52

The one thing to worry about is packet loss. That will always cause more trouble than lag. A game where pings range from 120 to 200 but clean is at least predicable. A game where pings are 20 to 60 but dropping packets? no way.

I gave up with on Descent recently as there are too many versions now. Trying to keep track of who is using what or which group which is tiresome. I don't have lots of time to play anymore. That and I'm not hardcore enough to keep up. and don't want to. *shrug*
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Re: Game Design! ? (◄ █ ►)

Post by 1DVD4D2UDK » 10 Jun 2015, 12:14

Duper wrote:The one thing to worry about is packet loss. That will always cause more trouble than lag. A game where pings range from 120 to 200 but clean is at least predicable. A game where pings are 20 to 60 but dropping packets? no way.
I know a bit about networks, but I'm curious about what type of connection elements would invite packet loss? Too many hops, an overseas connection, or just below average routing through old trunk lines? And if I remember correctly, the weakest link is the longest with too much resistance.
I gave up with on Descent recently as there are too many versions now. Trying to keep track of who is using what or which group which is tiresome. I don't have lots of time to play anymore. That and I'm not hardcore enough to keep up. and don't want to. *shrug*
I'm wondering what PG would be like on an iOS device! Phone/Pad etc. Especially with the attitude detection, heh - you could steer by moving it to & fro! LOL :D
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