Favorite Primary/Secondary weapons.

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Vertigo Fox
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Re: Favorite Primary/Secondary weapons.

Post by Vertigo Fox » 28 Apr 2013, 02:10

Hawk, I perfectly agree with you, for multiplayer. We haven't discussed multiplayer very much (you might have noticed how hyper-focused we are on singleplayer :P) but one idea I've had is an option for any game to only use the original 5 and 5 weapons.

However, for the singleplayer game it's going to be a very long singleplayer game. The issue we've got is how to keep it from dragging when we've introduced all your equipment by the end of episode 3. We get the same problem if we space it out throughout the game because, with only 5 and 5, we get long stretches of game where nothing new happens. Introducing new enemies doesn't quite have the same effect. That was one of the big problems I had with D1, which had good pacing of equipment but not enough of it to last the game; and D2 as well, which had enough equipment to last but horrible pacing -- giving out most of the arsenal in the first three levels is not a good idea, whether you want to show them off in the demo or not.
So I think it's going to be very important to have new weapons and equipment to give out later in the game, to keep the player at the height of their interest and curiosity.
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Re: Favorite Primary/Secondary weapons.

Post by Trent Hawkins » 28 Apr 2013, 09:28

Well, on the pther hand, it's common practice for single-player to have access to more weapons, since competitive balance is not an issue there. It happens in various games, so it might as well happen here. The main idea I wish to keep in this discussion is the "new idea with each weapon" (regardless no. of weapons in arsenal).

Addendum: Have you guys thought of the ship only carrying a small amount of weapons (5 for example) but have a myriad of them in single player, forcing the player to make a choice each time, on what weapon to replace? (Crysis style) That should allow for introducing as many weapons as needed to pace a long SP campaign properly, while at the same time it gives greater interest as a sense of ship customization is given, following a sense of pilot personification on top:
"I like my pyro to have a Fusion, an EMD, a Napalm, a plasma, and a gauss cannon out of the 20 weapons out there. Even when I was before an omega canon, I refused to replace any of my current weapons with it."
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Re: Favorite Primary/Secondary weapons.

Post by Shroudeye » 28 Apr 2013, 13:39

That is also something we've been discussing: Like we limit the primary guns to 2 or 3 only, with the ability to swap each of them from the environment. Secondaries are also being discussed.

There is also the weapon modding: Weapons with similar "bases" (which can be types of the weapons, weapons sharing same slot in original games, etc.) can be made into one upgradeable cannon, with each upgrade adding a firing mode.

For example: Plasma, Phoenix and EMD cannons share the same base: They are all plasma-based. So, what if we fuse them all into one cannon? You find the base (Plasma) cannon, then you find the Phoenix and EMD upgrades and attach them. This way you seem to carry more guns, but you actually carrying one, versatile gun.

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Re: Favorite Primary/Secondary weapons.

Post by Pumo » 29 Apr 2013, 19:36

Shroudeye wrote:...
For example: Plasma, Phoenix and EMD cannons share the same base: They are all plasma-based. So, what if we fuse them all into one cannon? You find the base (Plasma) cannon, then you find the Phoenix and EMD upgrades and attach them. This way you seem to carry more guns, but you actually carrying one, versatile gun.
I Actually like that idea pretty much, and I really hope this system to be implemented as it will bring a great and very intelligent gameplay element, as well as some satisfaction for the fans of all Descent titles out there, as it includes weapons from the 3 games. :)

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Re: Favorite Primary/Secondary weapons.

Post by 1DVD4D2UDK » 29 Apr 2013, 20:58

Shroudeye wrote:For example: Plasma, Phoenix and EMD cannons share the same base: They are all plasma-based. So, what if we fuse them all into one cannon? You find the base (Plasma) cannon, then you find the Phoenix and EMD upgrades and attach them. This way you seem to carry more guns, but you actually carrying one, versatile gun.
I like this idea too, and using the unreal attachments setup would fit in with the upgrade bays also.
Pumo wrote:I Actually like that idea pretty much, and I really hope this system to be implemented as it will bring a great and very intelligent gameplay element, as well as some satisfaction for the fans of all Descent titles out there, as it includes weapons from the 3 games. :)
As far as using all weapons, I think it's only supposed to be a selection of them - as yet to be decided, maybe the most popular.
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Re: Favorite Primary/Secondary weapons.

Post by Pumo » 29 Apr 2013, 22:56

Yeah, a selection would be the best. After all, there are some weapons that are not really needed, like (IMHO) the Microwave cannon, that doesn't really offers anything new or useful to the original Descent arsenal.

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Re: Favorite Primary/Secondary weapons.

Post by Duper » 30 Apr 2013, 00:32

Weapon design is much (if not exactly the same) as character design. You work initially with shadow outlines to create a unique visual that will identify that particular individual. Take a look at the D1 bots. They all have their very unique outlines where even with 9 pixels you could pretty much realize what you were up against.

With weapons, we rely on characteristics and properties. You want things that are useful, but not not too heavy handed or it makes the game a cake walk. And as we have heard, for many, "easy" Does NOT = fun. So yea, family weapon progression would work well there and not be a game breaker as long as the upgrades are introduced in appropriate areas of the campaign. Look at how the laser levels and the quad upgrade was introduced throughout the game. It was masterfully done, even by today's standards.

HERE's a classic video game that I used to play that utilized weapon upgrading. Each weapon three upgrades and each upgrade had its own pluses and minuses. Some of them I would leave at level 2 because l liked how I could use it.
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Re: Favorite Primary/Secondary weapons.

Post by Shroudeye » 30 Apr 2013, 10:40

Duper wrote:...So yea, family weapon progression would work well there and not be a game breaker as long as the upgrades are introduced in appropriate areas of the campaign...
I agree, plus that was what I had in mind.

Also, I was thinking about some weapons have their "Upper Tier" counterparts: Like the Spreadfire and Helix cannon, the latter pretty much is a souped-up version of the former. At least that is what I think, I hardly use them anyways.

And then we have Vulcan, Gauss and Vauss cannon: First two are exact opposites of each other in characteristics, but I kinda think the Gauss is a replacement gun-this can be arguable though. But the third is just "best of two worlds": Stable and powerful as Gauss, yet rapid-firing as Vulcan, making the both guns obsolete... What do you think of this three?

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Re: Favorite Primary/Secondary weapons.

Post by specialsymbol » 30 Apr 2013, 13:58

Trent Hawkins wrote:Advanced descent doesn't mean overflow descent. One reason a lot of players prefer D1 over D2 is the minimality of weapons and the technicality that introduces to multiplayer as well as the suspense and imagination it triggers in single player. A general good rule I believe to be, is that the first objective is to introduce a whole new idea with each new weapon introduce, and that's what's leads to having as few weapons as possible. I would vote in completely redisigning or introducing new weapons in the 5 and 5, though not so much making it more than that. solid entirely independent ideas for primary weapons, just like the original.

My fav D1 ones btw: Fusion and proxie.

True, but I'd like to see some D2 weapons replacing the D1 ones then. The Helix Cannon for example. Well, it's the only one, the Gauss was nice but always deemed a little bit unfair to me.
But on the missiles.. not sure about the Earthshaker and the Flash, but I'd definitely miss the Mercury and Guided Missile.

edit: okay, i have to admit - i'd miss the earthshaker just due to the whoa effect it created

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Re: Favorite Primary/Secondary weapons.

Post by Sirius » 30 Apr 2013, 17:24

D1 Spreadfire has different uses in MP than Helix - Helix is just a massive DPS weapon you don't have to be too accurate with, but Spreadfire was genuinely difficult to dodge in D1 because it was so fast - you could pretty easily pepper a room with it and leave no room to go. Helix, still not so fast so it's more feasible to run away from it. In D2, Spreadfire isn't as fast so Helix just supercedes it.
Gauss outright is more powerful than Vulcan in almost every way. There's very little reason to use the original gun if you have Gauss, except for a couple niche cases. Vauss... is pretty much just a dumb name. Always has been, always will be.

Am a fan of mercs and flashes, there are a lot of haters of the latter though so I can see it being dropped. Shakers can be fun but really need their own levels because they dominate everything else.

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