Server options / joystick rotation speed

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1/2Hawk
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Re: Server options / joystick rotation speed

Postby 1/2Hawk » 27 Nov 2015, 22:46

I think adding an ability to change the accel curve would be a nice addition regardless if we leave the top angular velocity alone or tune it down some. I can definitely see the point Stealth is making. I just cant really be objective about it because for 3 yrs we had no joystick support at all and I got used to flying mouse/kb style - LOL. So it's not that the team is pro-mouser natively, we didnt have much choice all this time. I would be willing to try a wrapper and get the stick out to develop a more secure position on it though. I remember being a lot younger and feeling naked in D without a stick. I guess I've grown eight fingers on my left hand since.
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Re: Server options / joystick rotation speed

Postby Poxy » 27 Nov 2015, 23:29

I'm firmly committed to using a joystick, and I'd be sad if I was doomed to lose every match just because of that.
I'll add that lots and lots and lots of video games favor a mouse, so there is really no shortage of first person games where mouse users can get plenty of kills.

In a 6DoF flying game, I'd really appreciate if the joystick was a viable option. I have no plans to switch to a mouse while flying a 6DoF ship.
But I would be disappointed if I consistently got shot up simple for the fact that mouse users have an inherent advantage.
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Re: Server options / joystick rotation speed

Postby Urungus » 28 Nov 2015, 00:40

Poxy wrote:I'm firmly committed to using a joystick, and I'd be sad if I was doomed to lose every match just because of that.
I'll add that lots and lots and lots of video games favor a mouse, so there is really no shortage of first person games where mouse users can get plenty of kills.

In a 6DoF flying game, I'd really appreciate if the joystick was a viable option. I have no plans to switch to a mouse while flying a 6DoF ship.
But I would be disappointed if I consistently got shot up simple for the fact that mouse users have an inherent advantage.


Fully agree with you Poxy! But as it stands 1/2Hawk (sorry if I'm speaking for you) has stated that all forms of control should be equal.
I'm a stick user, also. Always have been.
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Re: Server options / joystick rotation speed

Postby Poxy » 28 Nov 2015, 00:53

Yes, but how is equality defined? I'll take a page from the modern socialist: Look at equality vs equity. https://aegir.tech/JMNd

I would like to think that a skilled pilot using a mouse should be able to get the same kill ratio as an equally skilled pilot using a joystick.

I'd rather have equality present in game, rather than equality present in code.

I for SURE don't want the reverse problem, where joystick users can always beat mouse users, like how it felt in Descent 1.
That's just as bad. But even so, if there is any "favoring" of one or the other, I would like the advantage given to the joystick, simply because there are VERY few modern games that give people a 6DoF ship.

If people want a game that's made for mouse-use, those exist without end. Nearly every FPS ever made favors the mouse, especially modern ones, like Call of Duty, Bioshock, Fallout, Left 4 Dead, Team Fortress, even Skyrim.
Just a single game where the joystick crowd gets precedence over the mouse would be sublime.

SUBLIME.
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Re: Server options / joystick rotation speed

Postby Urungus » 28 Nov 2015, 04:13

Personally, I have faith in the Dev team to make things as close to equal as possible. Otherwise you stand to lose population because they have to conform or die.
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Re: Server options / joystick rotation speed

Postby DuderSeb » 28 Nov 2015, 13:27

I'm personally not keen in changing flight mechanics as a fix for this because what would we do if/when our ships control differently and there's, for example, a quick and nimble one? Wouldn't wanna shut ourselves out of devving that kinda stuff just yet :P
However, I definitely would want the different controls to be as competitive as possible versus each other and while I understand the points being made, I suspect that the solution might instead be in giving the player more controls/options over how input can be interpreted by the game (as much as UDK allows, anyway). My reasoning being that we're ultimately dealing with the different ways that sticks can be (or have been) mechanically built; gimbals, springs, potentiometers, etc. and that may have a "reverse effect" here in that the game may feel different on 2 different sticks with the same settings. So, as Yoshimitsu also suggested, greater adaptability from our part might be the ticket.

We've started an internal discussion about this so let us know if you've any ideas, suggestions, or examples of which options could be useful to add :)
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Urungus
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Re: Server options / joystick rotation speed

Postby Urungus » 29 Nov 2015, 22:16

They are having the same problem in Sublevel Zero. One suggestion was to drop mouse acceleration to zero and lower sensitivity till it responds like it should. I'm sure the team here has tested many different settings. The thread on their board caught my eye.
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Re: Server options / joystick rotation speed

Postby MadMax1998 » 30 Nov 2015, 13:16

I don't think that dropping acceleration on any device is any sort of a proper solution.

The ship turns at a certain maximum speed and takes a certain time to accelerate toward that. This cannot simply be changed per input device type. This is flight mechanics we are talking about, not input mechanics.

On the input side, we can either add a ramp (an input acceleration) that will progressively saturate an axis instead of doing so instantly, or we can lower/increase the saturation percentage (what you are currently doing when changing joystick sensitivity).

I will implement the ramp idea for joysticks in the next build.
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Re: Server options / joystick rotation speed

Postby STealTH » 30 Nov 2015, 17:54

This means that in the first second the ship turns at the same speed as the mouse then the more one turns the turn rate decreases, on the joystick only?

Perhaps in future a new ship could be introduced that turns normally? at a lower rate that is. That way we can just select for only that ship to be allowed in 1on1 matches.
If the turn rate cannot be lowered for everyone according in server options, perhaps this is another middle ground option? I think that's a pretty cool idea, it could be a smaller ship too, like the Talon :]
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Re: Server options / joystick rotation speed

Postby MadMax1998 » 30 Nov 2015, 22:35

You have to realize that introducing a ship that is slower means we need to rebalance every weapon and powerup to make it work with this slower ship. That's why we have one speed for now on both ships, and it's not gonna change for Proving Grounds.

This means that in the first second the ship turns at the same speed as the mouse then the more one turns the turn rate decreases, on the joystick only?

What? No, the opposite happens; you move the stick to the right (at 100%) and the ship will accelerate toward max speed slower than it currently does. The ramp on the joystick code would artificially increase the time it takes for the ship to reach 100% turn speed, so it gives you better control when you do fast left/right movements but still ends up turning the same speed when you want to do a 180.

See any modern console FPS. Pushing the turn stick to the right will not make you turn right at full speed right away; it gradually speeds up.
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