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Server options / joystick rotation speed

Posted: 22 Nov 2015, 17:45
by Urungus
A lot of the folks here are into Ladder style competition. Personally, I'm just here to have a good game and have fun. But adding options to turn on and off (and limit) things might be something that these folks want.
Are these things possible already, or limited in their configuration due to having to add coding?

Re: Pro options, for servers.

Posted: 23 Nov 2015, 00:21
by STealTH
It's possible already but through a website like the IDL was. I don't think the game is ready though. To other oldskool pilots the ship probably doesn't turn the same either. it's the max sensitivity. To play competitively the joystick cannot be disadvantaged to the mouse.

Re: Pro options, for servers.

Posted: 23 Nov 2015, 09:43
by MadMax1998
Hey Stealth, maybe you could explain further what you mean by disadvantaged?

Re: Pro options, for servers.

Posted: 23 Nov 2015, 11:26
by STealTH
The max sensitivity on the joystick determines the ability to control the ship.It's possible to control the ship with the current max sensitivity but it is too high (much higher than D1/D2's joystick turning) to be where it should be. The concern there is that there should be a setting that gives the joystick excellent movement at max sensitivity, whilst that max sensitivity equals the max sensitivity of a mouse to not be disadvantaged with aiming. Both mouse and joystick should turn at the same maximum rate. Currently the joystick doesn't play naturally, however, the mouse does. My suggestion is to perhaps a server setting for a 'classic' feel to ship movement with joysticks. Most people don't have joysticks so it is understandable that the mouse should feel comfortable. It's the only idea I could think of for the ship to move as it should. Currently I think the ship is a bit big and turns too fast. The game needs to be for mousers too for it to succeed but I hope it can be for everyone. I played D for years and it was great until D3 broke it with it's faster turning to allow for mice also. I wonder if there is a different fix to that. I tell everyone you have a beautiful game here, it's just.. yeah, can control it and it's great for multiplayer (3+), but it doesn't turn right, at least not for joystick 1on1s where tough players are concerned. I could play it and remain in control but that because most of my aiming then would be done by slide up/down left/right as my years flying have fine tuned that. Against a mouser one needs full control of every joystick axis which means lowering the max mouse sensitivity to equal comfortable joystick movement/sensitivity.

Re: Pro options, for servers.

Posted: 23 Nov 2015, 15:30
by MadMax1998
I have no idea what exactly you mean since the game caps the maximum turning rate no matter what input you use. You can move your mouse at light speed and the ship will still turn at the same capped max speed that it does when you press the arrow keys. The same goes for the joystick... an input on your stick of 1.0 should result in the same turn speed as the arrow keys, and therefore the mouse. If you set your joy sensitivity to greater than 1.0, the cap will be reached before your joystick maxes out; however if you set sensitivity LOWER than 1.0, the stick will naturally not saturate the ship axis and never make it reach the maximum turning speed.

I also don't understand how sensitivity settings should be a server option; as I said, the goal was to make all inputs be equal and there should not be a server option necessary...

Re: Pro options, for servers.

Posted: 24 Nov 2015, 05:41
by STealTH
In short, the turning rate is too high for the joystick. Being too high for the joystick is what makes it good for the mouse. We want people to be able to play with the mouse too so I don't know.

Re: Pro options, for servers.

Posted: 25 Nov 2015, 16:11
by MadMax1998
I'd like to hear from other joystick players whether or not they agree that the rotation speed is too fast on a stick. It was originally set to exactly mirror Descent 1, but after a lot of testing the Rangers and us devs found that it was too difficult to aim at your target and hit it with that speed (because other things in our game are not exactly like in D1), so we slightly (!) increased maximum rotation speed and acceleration.

The question is, are you having genuine trouble navigating/aiming because the game is too fast, or do you rather have to adapt to our game because your muscle memory from Descent doesn't translate 100%? Because if it's the latter... then dare I say "we are not Descent" and it's up to every player to make up their own minds about whether they like our flight physics or not.
Not to say I don't respect the opinion; I want all joystick players to enjoy our game as much as possible, but if rotation speeds are too quick even though they are just slightly increased from D1, and they help others with aiming, then I'll need more than one person to say that it should be changed.

Your compromise of a server option is a good middle ground, but again, I'd need more people to vote for that because it does not make a lot of sense to me just thinking about it -- to me, it feels like saying "can we have a server option to make the cars go slower" in a racing game.

Re: Pro options, for servers.

Posted: 25 Nov 2015, 20:54
by Yoshimitsu
MadMax1998 wrote:If you set your joy sensitivity to greater than 1.0, the cap will be reached before your joystick maxes out; however if you set sensitivity LOWER than 1.0, the stick will naturally not saturate the ship axis and never make it reach the maximum turning speed.
To my mind, this here is the problem. I have also noticed some difficulty with precise aiming due to maximum turn rate. I hasn't stopped me from playing and enjoying myself but the default sensitivity is too high for me to be my most effective, and as you say if I decrease my sensitivity then I lose the ability to turn at full speed which is completely unacceptable.

I think that if the sensitivity option changed the acceleration curve rather than simply stretching or shrinking it then we would have a much easier time. I believe that my difficulty is due in part to the shorter throw of my stick (MS Sidewinder 3D Pro) which causes me to go from stopped to full turn with a much smaller hand motion than many other sticks, including your Cyborg Evo Max (I had one of those so I know personally). If the acceleration was a parabola rather than a straight linear progression, It would essentially squeeze a longer acceleration ramp into my shorter throw giving me much better control. Again, I think this would also be a huge benefit to gamepad users who have to deal with a tiny throw.

So to recap;
-No matter what your sensitivity setting, full input from the stick should always be full turn speed.
-Changing the sensitivity should move the "half speed" point along the acceleration curve to allow hand motions to have less effect near stick center and more effect near its limit.

Re: Server options / joystick rotation speed

Posted: 26 Nov 2015, 05:51
by STealTH
Thank you for acknowledging the difference there Max.

It's totally understandable that this requires more feedback.

If wonder I there were a few rangers from D3 who helped test that. D3 was entirely different from D1 and D2. D3 was designed with mousers in mind 'also' and had a higher turning rate. It was the same situation as Forsaken. That was actually the entire reason why it felt so different.

If we use the mouse in D1 or D2 today it would still be hard to turn.. unless you are crazy good like Birdseye was (he was unbelievably good with the mouse). It was meant to be that way though, because ships don't turn fast like people do in non 6DoF FPS shooters. It's definitely a entirely different feel between D1/D2 and D3/Forsaken. The trick to doing well with slower turning never was to fire where you see your enemy is in that split second, but to anticipate their destination and get them there instead. We turned ahead of time and that delay in turning meant having an appropriate level of control whilst using a joystick. Perhaps the joystick is just inferior to the mouse for aiming and that is what a lower turning rate makes up for, but we like to play a flying ship with a joystick.

Personally, my view I that the rate is too high for anyone using the joystick at max sensitivity (current turn rate). That's to play competitively though. If we just play casually, meh, it's just points in the scoreboard that has no value really. I would still have an amazing time and really enjoy your game if it stayed the same :) but not with a joystick, with a mouse instead. Again, to play really well with the joystick currently I sort of have to aim with slide up/down left/right and minimise joystick turning as much as possible so it's not such a big factor in kills.

Re: Server options / joystick rotation speed

Posted: 27 Nov 2015, 19:51
by MadMax1998
I understand the problem better now, and I would like Seb and Hawk to come in here and speak their minds because the decision to make aiming easier (for mousers, as we are) was a collective one. Personally I never minded the original D1-style rotation cap but I never tested actual multiplayer as much as the other devs, and they felt it needed to go higher, so we tested that and ended up with the current speed cap.
If the acceleration was a parabola rather than a straight linear progression
It actually is; I lerp the acceleration based on current speed. I.e. it's exponential. I can set it up to be changed instead of changing the cap when you modify your stick sensitivity, should not take long. Can be part of the R4 build.