"Fixing" the Ion Cannon and others ideas

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InVader
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"Fixing" the Ion Cannon and others ideas

Post by InVader » 05 Nov 2015, 23:54

I don't think it works well the way it is now. Instead of these sticky bombs the absolute best thing to to would be mines. The game really really really needs mines. If you encounter someone with invulnerability - which you absolutely will, because 2 out of 3 maps have 2 invulnerability spawns - you have absolutely not chance of escaping. How will just follow you with the afterburner and kill you no matter what. In the previous descent games hitting a mine slowed your enemy down for a moment, so it did give you a little bit of momentum in escaping.

Back to the Ion Cannon though. I think the best solution would be to give this weapon the laser's rapid fire function. Give this gun INSANE rate of fire, probably with a little spread, to make it good finisher weapon. Really, the rapid-fire laser is the only weapon right now that qualifies as a good finisher because the small spread that comes from the varied positions of laser cannons.

In comparison, the gatling gun better qualifies a long range assault weapon, rather than a finisher, because of it's accuracy. Sure, in Unreal Tournament the Link Beam is also dead accurate and it's finisher, BUT in that game you have no turn rate limitations. That's why it works. A good finisher weapon in a game like Sol Contingency where you have turn rate limitations is something with high rate of fire (naturally) and spread.

To be honest this would be really better suited for the gatling though. Give the gatling gun some spread and make the Ion cannon a rapid-fire long range assault weapon (what the gatling is right now).

Oh and a question: Does the Mag right now pierce through enemies like the Fusion does in Descent? I mean it does not have to, I'm just curious, because it's hard to tell.

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1/2Hawk
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Re: "Fixing" the Ion Cannon and others ideas

Post by 1/2Hawk » 06 Nov 2015, 00:01

This is what the Ion originally was but we've tried to do something different so its not so much like the plasma. But yes, we're not super happy with it either. Would love for you guys to help us think of something awesome to do with it so keep the suggestions coming.

Agree with the mines, which we had at one point, but ran into several problems with them. (The Twitch video talks of this). The best way to get a player off your six is to hit something in front of you with a Cerberus... what if those drones could damage an Invul player?

The MAC currently does not penetrate thru multiple players.
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Re: "Fixing" the Ion Cannon and others ideas

Post by DuderSeb » 06 Nov 2015, 00:06

What if the Atlas penetrated through multiple players? hmmm
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InVader
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Re: "Fixing" the Ion Cannon and others ideas

Post by InVader » 06 Nov 2015, 00:17

Yes, it is pretty obvious that it started out as a plasma and was made different just for the sake of it :D A good idea would be to turn it into a mix between the Spreadfire and the Plasma. High fire rate + lot of spread (preferably without a pattern). That's a good finisher weapon, but again, I think this role much more suits the gatling gun.

The Atlas penetrating players does sound interesting, though not sure how that would work x) It's a goddamn rocket afterall. The Mag is kinda like a Railgun (which I really prefer over the old Fusion cannon and the Mass Driver), so I though it suits it. It would also be nice to have some sort of an indicator in the HUD (or the shot's visual effect) as to how much the gun Mag is charged. You mentioned it has 3 level of charge-up. Would be nice to know when I hit those levels. Also, have you considered an overcharge mechanic instead of auto-firing the gun when it reached the limit (yeah I know, sounds like Fusion, but it's a cool mechanic. Sorry if it sounds like I'm trying to turn this into another Descent).

Also, forgot to mention: The Shotgun is a little bit OP right now, due to the shier amount of ammo available.

While you run out of ammo from most Energy based weapons (especially Mag), the shotgun has yet again too much. Remember the Gauss from Descent 2? Found it on level 3 and never switched to anything else, unless you ran out of ammo (you didn't). It pretty much ruined the game's weapon variety. Don't make the same mistake.

I think taking down the max. ammo for Gatling gun and Shotgun from 400 to 200-250 would be an appropriate balancing option.

Damage, spread and reload mechanism is fine. It's really just about having too much ammo for that weapon. It should be more restricted, I think.

Last but not least least, the screenshake on the Shotgun is insane. I had to turn screenshake off entirely because the "reduced" screenshake option is still too much. I also don't particularly like how it changes FOV. Please keep in mind sudden changes in FOV might make some people feel dizzy (well duh, it is already a 6DOF game). I'd prefer if the amount of screenshake in the "reduced" option would be 1/10 of what it currently is and make it a quick screen-pan instead of a quick FOV zoom-out.

Oh and one more thing: To make the quad lasers more unique compared to a Plasma cannon, I think you could give the Lasers some knockback. This would also make it a nice counter to the Shotgun.

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Ion
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Re: "Fixing" the Ion Cannon and others ideas

Post by Ion » 06 Nov 2015, 00:40

I agree that the Ion uses a nice idea, but the fuse is too short for it to be really strategic. I think it should work like a heavy gun that releases short-range fragments. Energy weapons with blast radius aren't as effective as canisters with a similar charge because the container allows the blast to build up and compress (which is actually how current ballistics work; why do you think rifling actually puts spin on the boolit? that's because the boolit is actually squeezed through the barrel). For an directed energy weapon, it would make more sense for it to distribute the energy into the nuclei and then distribute those into the enemy's face. If you've played Unreal 2, you know what I'm talking about :mrgreen:.
Not a room-clearing weapon like the old D1/D2 plasma that was almost unavoidable, but using the same profile now, but just change the mechanics.
I wouldn't mind seeing a secondary fire that acted as a energy equivalent to the Gatling, but the shots did less damage, had fired slower, and bounced around. Not as much of a damage weapon as it is to absolutely play hell on someone's senses. In the future, AI that naturally avoid projectiles with quick movements (like that blue thing from D2) would be driven crazy or even completely disoriented by this mechanic.
DuderSeb wrote:What if the Atlas penetrated through multiple players? hmmm
Shaved-charge! Did you know that the reason depleted uranium is so good at what it does is because it's self-sharpening? As it passes through materials, it fractures. The tip left is still sharp as fresh cut glass, who's sharpness is only outdone by a fine diamond blade, and it's probably as hot as lit tungsten filament.
Almost off-topic, but a missile that did damage and kept going could be explained in this way. Although for an object of it's size to be seen penetrating players would involve some warp-space hackery. However, maybe it could go through players it happens to finish off! There's another weapon that does this that I've seen before, but I forget where.
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Dusty267
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Re: "Fixing" the Ion Cannon and others ideas

Post by Dusty267 » 06 Nov 2015, 01:26

I think we need a slow weapon. I miss my charged up fusion dogfights :) You weren't allowed to mess up more than about 3 time before you died. The Mac I understand is supposed to be that, but it travels too fast. It is a combination of the fusion and mass driver. (I personally think we need a small, laser-beamy sniper weapon). But I suggest replacing the Ion with a Fusion brother. Long charge time, heavy hitting. Maybe a short range "blob" laser, (like the fusion), that travels a small distance and then has a small plasma exposion to do AOE damage? :shock: That would force oppoments to either be close to avoid it, or far away.....tactics!!

InVader
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Re: "Fixing" the Ion Cannon and others ideas

Post by InVader » 06 Nov 2015, 01:34

Dusty267 wrote:I think we need a slow weapon. I miss my charged up fusion dogfights :) You weren't allowed to mess up more than about 3 time before you died. The Mac I understand is supposed to be that, but it travels too fast. It is a combination of the fusion and mass driver. (I personally think we need a small, laser-beamy sniper weapon). But I suggest replacing the Ion with a Fusion brother. Long charge time, heavy hitting. Maybe a short range "blob" laser, (like the fusion), that travels a small distance and then has a small plasma exposion to do AOE damage? :shock: That would force oppoments to either be close to avoid it, or far away.....tactics!!
Well, a fully charged Mac shot insta-kills a 100 shield ship. That weapon freakin wrecks. It has a long charge-up time though (3 secs). I'm wondering whether it would be too OP to make it hit-scan. This game doesn't have a single hit-scan weapon. + The charged beam doesn't kill anything that has more than 100 HP. The better players who know how to traverse the map will always keep their Shield overcharged.

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Dusty267
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Re: "Fixing" the Ion Cannon and others ideas

Post by Dusty267 » 06 Nov 2015, 05:16

True. I just don't like the fact that everything is fast. The MAC emulates the mass driver, but it just has a charge-up time. I liked how you had to lead opponents with the fusion to hit them. That is huge when mastering a game like D3 and this, in my opinion. Just my thoughts.

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Re: "Fixing" the Ion Cannon and others ideas

Post by Whiteshark » 06 Nov 2015, 21:49

Two ideas for Ion cannon

-No exploding, persisting particles. -Slight disorientation like d3 microwave and a movementspeed reduction applied on hit. -More like a goo-cannon. -Particles explode on wall contact with similar slowing and disorientating capabilities in a short range.
Pros: Simple usage, can be used to chase people and to slow down hard-to-hit targets to work with missiles
Cons: Perhaps annoying, still a little too little use for the weapon, it is also easy to make it straight out better than lasers or worse on the other hand, slow can easily be overpowered or underpowered in certain situations, can lead up to "unwanted teamwork situations" where one slows down the enemy and other enemies kill each other, homers are perhaps too strong vs the slow

-Proximity exploding particles -particles stay without exploding for longer -smaller explosion radius -works closely to how it works atm
Pros: Usage is similar to the current one, but it is stronger at working anti-chase and filling it's current position as space reducer
Cons: Too random to fight in semi-open areas, hard to dodge, hard to balance to deal enough damage to be significant yet not be a dogfight breaker in semi-open areas, still a bit of a question whether to aim to the target or the wall behind him, would likely be a "noob cannon"

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Re: "Fixing" the Ion Cannon and others ideas

Post by NUMBERZero » 06 Nov 2015, 21:58

I was thinking that the Ion Cannon's shots can stick to player ships. Increase the shot size to make that more probable. Increase energy consumption so that it won't last in a dogfight. Decrease shot movement speed. It'd then make for a good close range surprise attack/ambush weapon.

You could also make it so that any shots on the wall will detonate as soon as a ship comes by instead of just on a timer. Keep the timer so that these things don't start hanging around all over the place, but this could also make it an ambush weapon if you time it right, or an escape weapon. I would consider decreasing the splash damage if you do that, but I would also recommend not adjusting the damage quite yet and just see how making it a sort of proximity bomb works out first. Keep the splash damage radius tho.

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