R4, or what not to do

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Whiteshark
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R4, or what not to do

Post by Whiteshark » 16 Dec 2015, 22:11

Well the title is a bit provocative indeed, but I feel like the new patch was a downgrade. That's ok, we betatesters are ment to go through this stuff. Let's see what I think went wrong:

The new lasers shape is bad. It is very hard to hit enemies with so little vertical hitbox size. I also expect the lasers to shoot "through" the crosshair, and definitely not so much under it. Again, it's the shape that makes the hardpoints too low. The damage output is still a bit low. Fighting with only lasers (no secondaries) is literally impossible. The enemy could kill you with flares. :? (EDIT: I was told the lasers kill in 5 bursts which is enough)

I loved the old gatling, and the new one isn't bad either. Having no spinup makes is better all around, which is a downgrade to the game, though. It's great to have the easy-to-use weapon more situational, with a feature like spinup. (EDIT: I loved how gattling was hard to use in closed areas. It is now as versatile as any weapon)

Ion cannon is very new. The concept is a bit odd, since the weapon competes with gatling. You can't really have two weapons doing the same thing, can you? The idea isn't bad, but it needs something more to make it stand out. I'm not with some people here in the forums thinking you should copy plasma or do anything similar to it. I prefer some flashiness, like the antimateria explosions.

It's great you increased big mac hitbox, it really feels a lot less random now. It is still far too good compared to other primaries, though. Building speed could be reduced, so that the weapon wasn't so easy to use close range. I also think the damage is a tad too high.

Finally, I'm not sure if you changed the ship's speed, but I feel like the ships should be more agile. Having so many fast particle weapons, dodging is not even possible in a low ping server. Having a low turnrate balances the game well, but having too little acceleration to slides unemphasizes dodging, which is still a big part of 6dof. Having a railgun in the game this feels like a must to do. A small bit of extra agility affects a slow rate of fire weapon (mac) more than spray weapons. I'm not talking about a huge difference here, but a notable one still.
Last edited by Whiteshark on 17 Dec 2015, 16:47, edited 1 time in total.

Whiteshark
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Re: R4, or what not to do

Post by Whiteshark » 16 Dec 2015, 22:30

Funny Valve also released a big patch to dota 2 today. That broke the game a lot worse than what r4 did to SolC :D

InVader
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Re: R4, or what not to do

Post by InVader » 16 Dec 2015, 23:26

I myself feel indifferent about the ship's speed. Yeah, it's slow, but the afterburner is really good now and I've managed to get away a couple of times using trichording. It's hard, but if you use it the smart way, it helps. Having trichording in the game definitively raises the skill-ceiling, but it's a rather niche mechanic. I don't know, I'd have to play a bit more and learn to do trichording really well to have a solid opinion on this.

Yet again, I feel like this would be very easily solved with just having mines. Right now we are trying to balance the game with some of it's key features still missing, which is kinda stupid x)

Rest is on my R4 impressions thread.

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Re: R4, or what not to do

Post by Whiteshark » 17 Dec 2015, 14:50

The ships have to be faster. They were made slower because dumbfires and lasers were hard to hit, but now atlas and mac are far too easy to use. Even homers are more effective now. It's clear the ships should be more agile.

Now as for the ion cannon, it would be a perfect weapon to slow down enemy movement. This is because it is an easy-to-hit but little dps weapon. This way hitting the slow is less random and the gameplay will be more coherent, so you'll get to use it in a good cooperation with secondaries. This would also make it a better chasing tool. Mac is currently far superior in chasing because you can deal damage in bursts and use trichording more while chasing.

Whiteshark
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Re: R4, or what not to do

Post by Whiteshark » 17 Dec 2015, 18:03

After playing some with Kayena I realized the situation is a lot worse than what I got from the first tries. He should be posting a video at some point to show how broken the game is. Here is some in-depth review of the situation:

The flight mechanics are weird now. The ships aren't fast like in d1 so you don't want to keep on moving as fast as possible all the time. On the other hand twitch-movement doesn't happen in the game atm. The turnrates are too slow for this(EDIT: Or perhaps it's because my stick sensitivities are maxed out and too slow. What was the purpose of the change to them?), as well as slides. As a result, this happens:

Gattling is impossible to miss with. It is incredibly overpowered at the moment, and completely versatile.
Seekers need too much space to dodge. Flares help, but...
cerberus drones are far too good and aren't affected by flares. They follow you from another side of the map and make it impossible to hide. Dodging them needs far too much work for a too long duration, making you really weak in a dogfight.
Mac needs small nerfs but it's useless talking about it here because the other weapons are balanced worse.
Ion cannon is useless...
unless your enemy wields lasers, which are more useless. It is impossible to hit with burst lasers, against a target that can maneuver. If one realizes to move vertically to the one wielding lasers, it is totally impossible to hit him. Maneuvering well is not effective.
Atlas deals too much damage. It cannot be nerfed otherwise, since it is too strong point blanc. Perhaps you'll have to buff it somehow and nerf the damage, but it is too strong close range at the moment.

The game being so much about burst damage is a good thing because one can gather hp back by running. This sort of gameplay demands faster controls. The game feels really incoherent at the moment, since damage happens in bursts while the dodging happens by random moving and by relying on enemy's bad aim. Dodging is much too underemphasized in the current gameplay. Gatling and mac are not dodgeable, while vs. lasers any movement will make you a really hard target to hit. Ion does not do enough to be useful in fights. Positioning is not effective because it is slow to move at the moment while weapons kill you really fast.
There is so little clear "good plays" into the game.

I wish there was a lot more players playing to confirm my thoughts. People disagree on a lot of things here, like with gatling spinup, which to me seemed like a really great way of balancing the weapon. I loved r3 and honestly I wish the game was reverted and the changes made would be small and into the balancing, and not to change stuff completely. I can see the game working as it is with some balancing, but I don't think it will be quite as good as it was. Only the ion cannon was of little use, mostly because of the big energy usage.
Last edited by Whiteshark on 17 Dec 2015, 18:47, edited 1 time in total.

Whiteshark
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Re: R4, or what not to do

Post by Whiteshark » 17 Dec 2015, 18:45

To add here, the way to balance cerberus would be to make the robots come in sort of cyclones, so that they would hit you simultaneously, perhaps in waves, but so that the stream wouldn't be so long.

I just noticed the abs were reverted to r2, which is GOOD. I prefer them not being all spammable. Don't touch it anymore please, not before you have all the other stuff balanced.

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1/2Hawk
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Re: R4, or what not to do

Post by 1/2Hawk » 17 Dec 2015, 20:49

I don't believe any changes were made to the ship speed - something as important as flight mechanics are usually discussed at length behind the scenes here. (Max any idea?) To be clear - are we talking about linear speeds or rotational speeds? We made the changes you guys wanted to the afterburner only as far as I know, which might make normal flight seem slower...? For rotational speeds, all the joystick guys wanted the game to not be advantageous for mousers so some code was added to allow changes in that curve. Maybe its got a slower accel rate from zero - but you should also now be able to tune it yourself. IDK, personally I didn't notice anything unusual myself so I haven't tried messing with that.
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Whiteshark
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Re: R4, or what not to do

Post by Whiteshark » 17 Dec 2015, 21:04

Perhaps it was the joystick changes. The sensitivity is not enough for me. I am not talking about flight speed, but about maneuvering.

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1/2Hawk
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Re: R4, or what not to do

Post by 1/2Hawk » 17 Dec 2015, 21:10

OK thanks - we're trying to sort out what's going on. But I wouldn't mind a couple rounds so you guys can show me in person what you mean.
UDK & UE4 - Visual FX (Particle Systems, Custom Materials, Lighting), Modeling, Animation/Rigging, Mapping, Coding

Whiteshark
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Re: R4, or what not to do

Post by Whiteshark » 17 Dec 2015, 21:16

Further, you should reconsider the ion cannon. The idea is nice, but now we have 4 fast projectile primaries. This is big step away from descent gameplay, and moreover fast projectile weapons might get boring after some weeks or months of playing. The slowish particles are a pretty big part of Descent for many. To me, 2 "dodgeable" primaries would be optimal, with the secondaries we have.

I'll just edit here to keep my posts somewhat contained. If you made the rapid fire lasers work like the current ion, you could make ion something different, perhaps even something that would replace the rapid fire lasers. This way you'll end up with more "slow particle" weapons while having basically the same weapons :)
I really liked the old ion particles too!
Last edited by Whiteshark on 17 Dec 2015, 21:35, edited 1 time in total.

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