Tons of issues

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Forboding Angel
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Tons of issues

Postby Forboding Angel » 16 Apr 2016, 04:59

Windows 10 64bit
6 core 3.5ghz
28gb ddr3
2 GTX 660 SLI

All I can say is, yay! And then I have to get into the nitty gritty...

Why the hell is it trying to install to an unprotected location in my C drive (C:/games)??? Redirected to Program Files x86 where it belongs.
Ran the game... it crashes upon trying to actually get in the flying portion of the game. Run as admin it works properly. Ok so devs are trying to write configs and settings to install dir... Bruh. No. So I open security settings on install folder and give "everyone" all write access (Seriously guys... come on, write your settings and configs to "/my documents/my games/scpg" as per the windows development guidelines).

DO NOT RESET A USER'S RESOLUTION WHEN THEY START A GAME. Get it from the desktop resolution. This pisses me off to no end. DO NOT force a resolution. Use the resolution from the desktop settings OR start it in windowed mode so it doesn't screw over people with multi-monitor setups.

At this point it just started getting comical...

Windowed mode is a joke:
Image

Edit: It can only do 16:10 in windowed mode? Dafuq? Keeps trying to force to 1868x1051 in windowed.

So, since I actually know what is going on in the background that is causing these issues, I easily bypassed them and got into game. The game itself looks fantastic. I'm ofc running on highest settings and it looks and feels great so far.

Keybinding:
Why doesn't esc clear the binding in the second column? -_-
Tab and grave/tilde are hardbound. Cannot be changed. This pretty much makes the game completely unplayable as I keep opening a effing console when I'm trying to hit the afterburner.

When I start the game, steam thinks that I'm playing "Unreal Development Kit".

Nice things to say about it:
It looks amazing, and the action is smooth and fluid.

Not-nice things to say about it:
Due to ... whatever the heck kind of setup this is, it's basically unplayable. Annoyed and disappointed.
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MadMax1998
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Re: Tons of issues

Postby MadMax1998 » 17 Apr 2016, 16:19

Well, thanks for your feedback. Even though the tone of it is a little insulting, I must say. I will address what you wrote and hopefully straighten some of your insights out:

First and foremost, since you seem to know everything about how our game works: we've made Proving Grounds with UDK. UDK, as you might know, does not allow source code access, so we can make a game with technology we can't make low-level changes to.

This should answer the following points you made:

When I start the game, steam thinks that I'm playing "Unreal Development Kit".

Tab and grave/tilde are hardbound. Cannot be changed. This pretty much makes the game completely unplayable as I keep opening a effing console when I'm trying to hit the afterburner.

DO NOT RESET A USER'S RESOLUTION WHEN THEY START A GAME. Get it from the desktop resolution. This pisses me off to no end. DO NOT force a resolution. Use the resolution from the desktop settings OR start it in windowed mode so it doesn't screw over people with multi-monitor setups.

All of these are impossible for us to change with UDK. It's one of the reasons we will move to Unreal Engine 4 so we can make a better working game next.

Why doesn't esc clear the binding in the second column? -_-

Apart from this being pretty nitpicky (I can say I'm nitpicking about such things in other games myself), it's again how the engine works. Pressing ESC is gonna get you out of the UI menu back into the match, that's why it can't be used to cancel a binding. No way to change that for us.

Edit: It can only do 16:10 in windowed mode? Dafuq? Keeps trying to force to 1868x1051 in windowed.

Don't know what you are talking about here; as long as the resolution you select AFTER switching to windowed mode is lower than your desktop res, it can show whatever ratio you want it to.

Why the hell is it trying to install to an unprotected location in my C drive (C:/games)??? Redirected to Program Files x86 where it belongs.

If you do that, while the installer, the manual and the readme all CLEARLY tell you not to do that, then this happens:
Ran the game... it crashes upon trying to actually get in the flying portion of the game. Run as admin it works properly. Ok so devs are trying to write configs and settings to install dir... Bruh. No. So I open security settings on install folder and give "everyone" all write access (Seriously guys... come on, write your settings and configs to "/my documents/my games/scpg" as per the windows development guidelines).

There is a reason why I put "DO NOT INSTALL TO PROGRAM FILES" into the manual. It's for people like you who insist on knowing where our game should be installed. I'm not saying I want to tell you what to do with your PC, but we did warn you that installing to Program Files will give you trouble. If you go ahead and do it nonetheless, it's pretty pointless coming here and complaing about it.
Now for clarification, the game needs write access to save settings to the config files. And no, since UDK does no allow us source code access, we cannot change that to redirect to "My Documents". I would have done so if possible. However, one thing YOU can do is make a symbolic link that will allow you to put the config files there nonetheless. Or you could give the game write access by changing its folder's permissions (which you did). Or you could install the game outside of Program Files, like we suggest. Lots of ways to fix your issue.

I'm happy you enjoy the game, I really am. And asking questions and giving critical feedback is important to us, but next time, maybe don't post it like this?
Max
Sol Contingency Programming Lead
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Forboding Angel
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Re: Tons of issues

Postby Forboding Angel » 28 Apr 2016, 08:12

First set of points:
Ok, UDK limitations, nothing you can do about that

Second Set:
Yes it's nitpicky, but it's also common behavior in games.

Third:
If you set windowed mode to 1920x1080 and then use a window manager to make the window borderless (window also sets window top left corner to 0x0), the game resets the window to 1868x1051. In the many years I have been using window managers to make 1920x1080 windows borderless fullscreen, this game is literally the first one to have an issue. If you're wondering why it's a big deal, it's because on multi-monitor setups, it's pretty important to be able to run this way.

Fourth:
You SHOULD know this, if your program has issues with write locations, don't just have it install wherever...

Send windows this command
cmd.exe ICACLS "<Install Directory>" /grant Everyone:F /T
in the installer. Now "everyone" has 100% full write access to the install folder. Fyi, this is the same method steam and other platforms use.

If you want to do it more properly, use this:
cmd.exe ICACLS "<Install Directory>" /grant %USERNAME%:F /T

That way it only grants the current user full write access. However, since your issue is what it is, I suggest using Everyone. THat will preserve the game running on multi-user setups.

----

Putting some sort of disclaimer in your installer is NO EXCUSE for bad practices. You owe it to your users to at google the problem and fix it properly instead of implementing bad practices workarounds. Particularly in this case as it should be a complete non-issue.

https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/lib ... 53525.aspx
http://ss64.com/nt/icacls.html
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Halogene
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Re: Tons of issues

Postby Halogene » 28 Apr 2016, 11:30

Uhm, you ARE aware that this has been programmed by enthusiasts in their spare time in order to make high quality gameplay available for people like you for free? Even if the plan is to fund a kickstarter campaign, Proving Grounds is still open and brought to you at no cost by massive investment of people's rare spare time. While not having contributed in any way myself I am genuinely puzzled how you assume the right to attack the developers while still getting quality replies in a polite manner (kudos to MadMax here). The feedback you provide is valuable, why not present it as such as well ("look, in my setup this happens, you can avoid it by doing this")?
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Forboding Angel
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Re: Tons of issues

Postby Forboding Angel » 29 Apr 2016, 09:46

Halogene wrote:Uhm, you ARE aware that this has been programmed by enthusiasts in their spare time in order to make high quality gameplay available for people like you for free?


They aren't the only ones who work on free games. I have dedicated the majority of my life to open source projects, not only games. Devoting your time to free software does not exempt you from criticism, especially when the mistake is particularly egregious (doing what this installer does is a security risk, plain and simple and should not be tolerated by FOSS).

Halogene wrote:While not having contributed in any way myself I am genuinely puzzled how you assume the right to attack the developers while still getting quality replies in a polite manner (kudos to MadMax here).


I didn't attack them, I expressed frustration at large annoyances and the one glaringly huge issue (do you really think that any reviewer would be less harsh???).

Halogene wrote:The feedback you provide is valuable, why not present it as such as well ("look, in my setup this happens, you can avoid it by doing this")?


The development solution to the problem is so elementary and basic that the issue shouldn't exist in the first place. 5 minutes with google would have netted a solution. When in doubt, ask. Even if it might make you look silly. You look even more silly when you make a huge blunder like this. If they had done this in a linux build the linux community would have their heads on pikes by now. The fact of the matter is that I provided the solution, but in my first post I wanted to know the reason why it was done that way as sometimes bad practices are implemented for good reasons (whether the proper way to handle the solution or not), so I was giving them the benefit of the doubt.

But then to be talked down to as though I was the one that fucked up?

There is a reason why I put "DO NOT INSTALL TO PROGRAM FILES" into the manual. It's for people like you who insist on knowing where our game should be installed.

^^ Yes, this is exactly the development process that the Operating System and it's creators tell you not to do (IN THE MANUAL (I.E. Technet)). Why? Because it's a flagrant system security risk. Program files and the Trusted Installer user exist for a reason. And yes, I do insist that I know where your game should be installed, in the container for programs where every other program belongs. That container exists for a reason, system security.

Bruh, nah. Hence the harsh yet helpful reply.

Additionally, while SolC is free (as in beer), it is not Open Source, meaning that you should be very much on the lookout for hanky panky (although I would trust these devs of course, they seem to be good guys). But being non-open source means that other devs cannot inspect the code and inspect it for malicious behavior (intentional or not (as is the case here... Unintentional bad behavior)), which in turn means that as it isn't coming from an established company or organization it is held to an even higher standard.

Please, read the reply to this question on stack overflow:
http://serverfault.com/questions/120681 ... les-folder

I personally would return the software as faulty and bill you for every minute we spent with it - due to gross neglect.


And he is absolutely correct.


-----

Look if you still don't understand why it is a GIANT security risk, understand that programs installed to program files are very restricted in what they can do wrt the OS as a whole. UAC locks it down to the point to where it can't do much outside it's own folder. Installing outside of program files negates UAC altogether and all of the things that UAC is meant to protect against. As this isn't even Open Source, that is a pretty big cause for concern, and it should bother you.

A little anecdotal story for you...

In the Spring community, back about 8 years ago, we had a lobby that most people used called tasclient (this was a closed source lobby in an open source community... shit it was written in delphi, even if it was open source it might as well be closed (j/k delphi fans)). Tasclient was maintained by satirik. Sometimes reasonable, but usually a huge dick. At some point he got in a little spat with another member of the community and implemented code in the lobby that would cause an error "youradick.exe" to pop up whenever that user logged in.

This prompted well reasoned fears that satirik could easily mess with people's file systems using tasc if he felt so inclined. Hell, because tasc was not subject to UAC, it could cause all kinds of damage, and eventually it did.

Finally satirik threw a huge temper tantrum and released a version of tasclient that deleted itself, and half ass installed a competing lobby (springlobby) in it's place, but it did it in such a haphazard way that it left tasc completely crippled and the user with a springlobby install that crapped all over their harddrive.

There was a lot more to it, but that was the nutshelled version.
***************

So Yes, it matters. If that can happen in an FOSS community, what do you think could potentially happen in a closed source community?
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1/2Hawk
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Re: Tons of issues

Postby 1/2Hawk » 29 Apr 2016, 19:12

Speaking largely from ignorance here ... I can only say that we haven't cut any corners in our desire to produce the most quality product available completely regardless of the fact we're doing this in our spare time for free. As Angel points out, that's not even the right argument here.

The question is more should folks expect us to get everything 100% perfect our first time out given we might not be aware of stuff like this being an issue? The good thing about having a community is that there is a place available here for this kind of thing to be brought up, and we'll take it seriously and be mindful of it for our next patch or update etc. So thanks Angel for raising awareness on this - its very helpful information. What else could we be missing?

As far as arguing over tone, that's a waste of time. He's clearly passionate, and the one downside to forums like these is that you sometimes lose shit in translation. Appreciate you guys helping to back us up. But honestly, nothing really to get bothered over here.
UDK & UE4 - Visual FX (Particle Systems, Custom Materials, Lighting), Modeling, Animation/Rigging, Mapping, Coding
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Forboding Angel
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Re: Tons of issues

Postby Forboding Angel » 30 Apr 2016, 03:32

Passionate is an understatement, I have waited (like everyone else here) for a decent 6dof shooter for over 20 years. I have been following SolC ever since I heard about it so many years ago.

In the OP there is a lot that can't be addressed because the engine doesn't allow you to do much with it, ok I accept that, I understand what kind of a bind that puts you in.

Other than the install location, the rest is mostly nitpicky, like the binds and stuff (although the tab tilde thing really screws me over in a lot of ways).

My other big concern is windowed fullscreen mode. That definitely needs to be a thing, either that or the game needs to stop resizing a 1920x1080 window to the res I listed above when you remove the borders. I dunno why that would even happen. I've never seen any other program do that.

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