Some newbie questions about Sol Contingency.

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Vertigo Fox
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Re: Some newbie questions about Sol Contingency.

Postby Vertigo Fox » 17 May 2015, 14:44

Xaxa... players don't mind being killed when they can say "oh ok if I had done this better maybe I'd have won". Taking away the player's control in a multiplayer setting makes a kill feel cheap because the player's cause of death -- the killing shot, so to speak -- wasn't something they could have done anything about.
If the player's control is taken away they're doubtlessly going to get killed before it comes back... so it's much less frustrating to have a weapon or circumstance that would take away that control from the player just kill them instead. I think that's what 1DvD and Seb are getting at here.

I guess a theoretical exception would be a mode where points are scored based on how long each player's life is; if these were made in such a way that they'd probably add a couple of seconds to your life at the cost of the other guy being able to easily kill you after that.
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Re: Some newbie questions about Sol Contingency.

Postby xaxazak » 17 May 2015, 16:35

Vertigo Fox, I think here I'd say that "if I had done this better maybe I'd have won" would relate, at least partly, to avoiding the freeze or slowdown or loss of control. You would have to balance it, eg: no bombs that freeze everyone in a big room for 10s.
Since Descent is such a mobile game I think it would have to be a pretty minor effect, eg a freeze-thrower (eg: liquid nitrogen flame thrower) that had a cylinderish area of effect of say 3-craft-size diameter and 10-craft length, and reduced speed by at most 60% for maybe 3s per second of being "chilled", with reduced effect at the cylinder edge.

Another question: Does this dislike relate only to loss of mobility? Are you equally annoyed about say a pacifying effect like say: an EMP that only prevents you from attacking, but doesn't affect your mobility?

As for 10s+, that's kinda not what I was thinking about. Perhaps that's what other people were thinking about, though.
Also: Counter-Strike freezes you for the entire rest of the round when you die and your team-mates get all the points. And it's very popular.
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Re: Some newbie questions about Sol Contingency.

Postby Vertigo Fox » 17 May 2015, 19:52

Because this is a game of dogfighting and dodging, any loss of control is an enormous disadvantage that will lead to death against pretty much any pilot who has some idea of what they're doing. So anything that takes away control might as well be instant death.
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Re: Some newbie questions about Sol Contingency.

Postby xaxazak » 17 May 2015, 20:12

I get that mobility is massively important in Descent, but the degree of these effects is completely up to the devs or modders. The degree or duration of slowing can be any real value, so there must be some point, between totally useless and totally overpowered, where it's reasonably balanced.
Maybe that's like 0.1s of 90% speed (10% loss) when in the blast radius of an AoE speed-reducing bomb. I can't imagine balanced values being as low as that myself, but however you feel there must be some positive value that you'd consider balanced, even if you don't like the concept itself.

Note: I'm not really advocating for ensuring these mechanisms are in the core game (modders can likely make 'em, anyway), I'm just querying your opinions and reasons for interest's sake.
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Re: Some newbie questions about Sol Contingency.

Postby LotharBot » 18 May 2015, 01:45

There's some degree of "slowing down your ship" already present in all three Descents. Whenever you take a hit there's a little bit of a knockback effect. If you get a really good stream of vulcan on someone, they won't be able to dodge your smart missile. The effects were more exaggerated in D2 (gauss) and D3 (mass driver), though those were disliked by a fairly large number of people. The thing all of those effects have in common is that they're instantaneous effects -- once someone stops shooting you, their shots stop messing up your ship. Only flash missiles (which were inconsistent across different setups) and blacksharks (which were a super-weapon) violate this principle.

It's not fun to be unable to control your ship. Especially not in a game that's about flying. If you're going to cripple me, just kill me instead, so at least I can respawn.
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Re: Some newbie questions about Sol Contingency.

Postby xaxazak » 18 May 2015, 02:59

I personally like those mechanics but they're not all that important to me, and as I'm likely in the minority I'm happy to cede the issue.

Followup questions, though:

1. What about weapons that prevent you from firing, or reduce your damage or firing rate?
2. What about weapons that affect your vision, or sound, or your ability to see enemies?
3. What about map features like wind tunnels, high friction (slowing) like water, or low friction (skidding) like vacuum?
4. What about powerups that increase your movement?
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Re: Some newbie questions about Sol Contingency.

Postby LotharBot » 18 May 2015, 04:05

Generally speaking, buffs are more fun than debuffs. It's way more fun to be boosted than to be nerfed.

Level features like wind tunnels and teleporters are fun, because they have a purpose other than "reduce your amount of control". If there's something like a water feature that allows you to trade visibility for speed, that can likewise be fun.

Debuffs for the sake of debuffs aren't that fun. Just destroy my ship, please, instead of making me fly around crippled for anything less than a fraction of a second.
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Re: Some newbie questions about Sol Contingency.

Postby 1DVD4D2UDK » 18 May 2015, 04:40

So, I guess a partially crippled ship wouldn't be much fun -
unless there was a way to repair the ship over time, or like
finding a powerup that speeds up that process twofold! :D

I remember a wrench powerup before in some race game.

Although in the single player version, feeling vulnerable is
part of the immersion I would think - being scared one of
the bots might find you, especially in a weakened state! :(
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Re: Some newbie questions about Sol Contingency.

Postby youtle » 18 May 2015, 06:23

anything that disables looking or movement would just cause frustration and wouldn't be fun other things like temporarily disabling primary weapons, inverting movement controls or disabling vision like with the flash missile but i think they want to keep it closer to the classic gameplay.
I agree with lothar teleporters are a must.
xaxazak mention counterstrike which is different since you can buy a "loadout" and the maps are designed in a certain way, i think if its round based gamemodes borrow from quake's clan arena and freeze tag gamemodes
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Re: Some newbie questions about Sol Contingency.

Postby Drakensoul » 03 Aug 2015, 00:58

Look at how monetized D:U is, and how much more "corporate" the entire project feels. Probably why they got the bid.

Look at how closely SC resembles Descent proper... even with art change, the entire soul of the game is the same. Plasma cannons and all.

Don't get sued -- which is today's form of monetizing that over which you hold no control :(

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