Lasers need more damage

Post your feedback on the feel and balancing of the game here.

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Urungus
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Re: Lasers need more damage

Post by Urungus » 11 Nov 2015, 21:47

That being said let's discuss the term weapon balance for just a second. How exactly were all these weapons tested? Should not all the (primary) weapons take a players ship from 100 / 100 to 0 / 0 in the same amount of time given the fact that every single shot of the weapon hits every time?
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InVader
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Re: Lasers need more damage

Post by InVader » 13 Nov 2015, 17:21

Urungus wrote:That being said let's discuss the term weapon balance for just a second. How exactly were all these weapons tested? Should not all the (primary) weapons take a players ship from 100 / 100 to 0 / 0 in the same amount of time given the fact that every single shot of the weapon hits every time?
I think the very idea that every weapon should take the player's HP down to 0 equally fast is stupid. Ever weapon should have it's own use. Best example I can come up with is Unreal Tournament: the Flak is for close range only, but it might kill you in 1 hit at close range. Link Beam has high dps, but is very hard to consistently hit with it, so it's a finisher weapon. The Link primary on the other hand is mostly a defensive weapon, preventing others from chasing you. Sniper can kill in 1 shot, but it's very risky to use it at close range, because if you miss the 1st shot, you might be dead already (Mac has the same mentality in this game, which I think is perfectly fine. If you wreck with it, that just means that either you are good at the game, or everyone you've played with is bad). Rockets in UT actually deal 100 HP on direct hit, but the caveat is, that it's very hard to score a direct hit with it.

Are the atlas rockets easy to hit with? Yes, but you have a very limited number of shots and a long reload time.

I think rather than nerfing/buffing every weapon into oblivion, we should focus on making weapons work well in specific situations. I think right now the biggest fault of the game is that it doesn't have any defensive weapons. UT has the Link gun primary, Impact Hammer, Shock balls, Bio Rifle and Rocket grenades for defense. In SolC you can shoot the Cerberus in front of you and hope that it kills your pursuer + you only get 1 shot. You can spam laser and dumbfires defensively, but then you can't use afterburner anymore.

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Urungus
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Re: Lasers need more damage

Post by Urungus » 13 Nov 2015, 19:45

There's also the fact that you're not going to hit with every "bullet" from a single volley every time. I was just trying to grasp if there was some definitive formula. Of course, they each have their own role in combat and outside of that role they are harder to use. So, what weapon in SolC has an equivalent to the lasers based on role so maybe we can compare the two in combat? I'm not trying to dog anyone here. If I'm being misunderstood, please ask.
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Whiteshark
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Re: Lasers need more damage

Post by Whiteshark » 13 Nov 2015, 20:37

Weapons are balanced when experienced pilots can use any of them vs other experienced pilots, with situational advantages to all of them that don't still dominate the gameplay. Then how the balance is achieved should also be done so that they don't create too big situational advantages by gameplay-unrelated things, like being really good with a high ping or being highly luck based.
Also, balancing should be done so that even the new players can use the weapons in their set purposes while still maintaining a good skill cap. Things like how long the fights take is important to take to notice, as well as the restrictions aiming the weapon causes. For example MAC can be used by aiming once and dodging hits most of the time, while gatling needs to be continuously aimed, which restricts dodging. This is also why having a low energy cost for weak lasers isn't a good way of balancing the weapon, they underwhelm in the fast dogfights that burst weapons like atlas and mac forces.

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Re: Lasers need more damage

Post by STealTH » 14 Nov 2015, 03:26

The current MAC is for mousers because the max joystick sensitivity is too high (also consider that the average latency will be around 300 ever with those on cable unless they play from the U.S). The current lasers are tiny and I haven't played enough to know if they need more power but overall they should be a tiny bit slower and powerful. The Ion and Dispersion, I don't know but I do know that we need a fast energy type weapon like the plasma. For the most part I find that the only average weapons at the moment are the lasers and the gattling; the others are no good. The gattling is average because it takes time to fire. The ultimate test is not in the fun factor of the weapon, but in it's use when you don't have 1 second to spare to kill your enemy. The mouse is what makes this worse as it makes it easier to target at a whim basing skill on dexterity. The trick is to be facing the right way for the weapon to work before it's shot.

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Re: Lasers need more damage

Post by Whiteshark » 14 Nov 2015, 10:51

I play with a stick and fare ok with MAC, although I agree the weapon shouldn't be quite as precise (like a very small margin). Now as for lasers, I agree they are too fast and too weak. Ion cannon is actually a superb weapon, being easy to hit and dealing damage even with close hits. Now that I've played the game more, I think the way to balance Ion cannon would be to nerf MAC, make lasers slower and more powerful, and reduce Ion's energy cost (to about 2/3rds).

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DuderSeb
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Re: Lasers need more damage

Post by DuderSeb » 17 Nov 2015, 04:47

It's most interesting to read through your guys' feedback. Very good points being raised and discussed.

The idea behind our current weapon balance and design was based more around combat roles than the standard strong>stronger>strongest type formula from the D's which seems to encourage the use of just a few of weapons from your arsenal. Yup, we are veering away from that to explore different waters :). We wanted to make every gun count as much as possible by accommodating each of them to different playstyles and situations; from the aggressive point-blanker, to the calculating sharp-shooter, and in between. While our secondaries play a more special "opportunistic" role to flip firefights on their head.

As for the lasers; indeed, they are our middlest middle of the road weapon. We wanted them to be as versatile as possible given that you (veterans and newcomers) start out with them. That's also why they got that rapid/quad toggle which we feel makes it a weapon capable of both suppression in rapid fire (for retreat/spraying) and "focused damage" in quads (for targeted attacks).

All that said, we want to first focus on making sure that our builds are functionally solid before moving to full-on balancing with our testers (y'all needed the time to learn and adjust to the weaponry anyway :)). But, as we are achieving that already; in R3 you guys will find some modifications to the afterburners. This is our usual "starting point" for tuning and balancing weapons. So please grab that and get flyin'! We'll be awaiting some feedback and hanging out on Steam to get games going!
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